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ROB REINER:
Theloneus Monk. Also.
SHERYL CROW:
Theloneus Monk. I mean there's so many there.
NORM PEARLSTINE:
Well there's a body of work that Miles Davis had that goes, went on for,
for at least forty years.
SHERYL CROW:
And kept changing, and kept influencing.
NORM PEARLSTINE:
It kept changing, it kept evolving, and as you say, the people who
played with him and went on, uh, maybe if you think of his early groups
with people like Paul Chambers, Red Garland, John Coltrane, Bill Evans,
who went on to really define jazz, we've joked a little bit
about Armstrong because my colleague Walter Isaacson, the Managing
Editor of TIME is from New Orleans, and, so there's a special
dispensation for him, and if, in as you try hard enough, then
Wynton Marsalis will come in, also (Overlapping voices).
CHARLIE ROSE:
But, but then, why is it...
NORM PEARLSTINE:
But I think Armstrong was certainly, brought a lyricism and the idea of
the solo jazz musician, or the solo musician to jazz, where everything
was ensemble before that, he, but when he was playing with King
Oliver is when he really, I think developed an awful lot of the
traits of, that, he went on to popularize. What he didn't have to
me, was the length and range of work, or develop the musicians
that an Ellington or a Davis did. If you think of the Hot Five, or
the Hot Seven, Lil Harden, who became Lou Armstrong, was the great
musician with him, but it's hard to think of many other people who came
out of the Armstrong bands that went on to have careers,
themselves, the way that people came out of Ellington.
CHARLIE ROSE:
All right. Let me, let me move this to you, because I want to talk
about your, get your opinions on jazz...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH:
Right.
CHARLIE ROSE:
....and then also, contemporary music today, other than what we've been
discussing so far.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH:
Well I just wonder, 'cause I notice as we're talking about music, we
sort of have this rolling list of names, rather than sort of staying on
one person and saying, well, is it Marlon Brando or is it Lawrence
Olivier. And I think that's curious, right here, when we talk about
music, so, when you talk about...
CHARLIE ROSE:
Well, no, I was going to do that, actually, I'm prepared to do that. Is
it...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH:
....is it, sort of jazz, as jazz, or is it Motown as Motown, and sort of
all the people under that roof, or are there individuals? You know?
SHERYL CROW:
I think there were innovators in each field, you have somebody who
stepped forward like a Miles Davis or even Louis Armstrong, that's a
really great point, about the soloist meets lyricist, or the singer,
singer-songwriter who happens also to be an eloquent musician, and
you've never seen that before, and, I think in each category, there are
definitely stand-outs of people who brought something that had never
been done, and it changed the scene of music. But, to look at music as
an overall, to me, it would be impossible, because you've got George
Gershwin in there, who took, uh, jazz, and gospel, and took it to
theater, and uh...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH:
Right. It's very interesting...
SHERYL CROW:
....and classical, and you put it all onto one...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH:
We, we, when we think about music as a so-called universal language or
even to go back to the question you posed to me, can I think of, you
know, sort of one white person, a non-black person, um, it seems, as we
talk, that in music, it's more about people taking a little of this and
a little of that, and being more open to influences, I have the feeling,
and moving over, out of cultural boundaries. It's maybe easier in
music, to do that, is why we can, you know, go to another country and,
and see people standing on their feet and cheering, when they hear Negro
spirituals, you know, Korean Americans telling you that they sang "We
Shall Overcome." It somehow gets beyond, and maybe, that also means it
gets beyond the person.
ROBERT HUGHES:
You know, if I could throw into the hat the name of a
musician who is not a popular musician but nevertheless a very great
one, Igor Stravinsky. The distinguishing character, you know, and
definitely the most influential, but, at least from my understanding of
it, composer of the 20th century. And yet, Stravinsky's work takes in
so much from popular culture, you know, I mean, he, he himself said,
that it was his first exposure to, to American black jazz, that heaved
him after the Russian orchestral tradition.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH:
And last night I actually saw Wynton Marsalis' version of the Soldier's
Tale, called the Fiddler's Song...
ROBERT HUGHES:
There you are, yes.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH:
So he's...
ROBERT HUGHES:
And so in music things do rotate, they act upon one another, theme are
taken up, repeated, I mean it's structure, if you like, is, uh,
contrapuntal, uh, more contrapuntal in terms of (Overlapping voices).
CHARLIE ROSE:
....century, you have to think of someone like Sinatra, the, who, I
mean, or, five decades of, uh, a body of work and an influence over,
over people, and certainly I think Aretha Franklin, and, uh, certainly,
since (Overlapping voices) the Motown sound and the impact that had, and
whether you give credit to the artist or the people like Barry Gordy and
others who, who were responsible for bringing it forward. Where do you,
what's the impact of Sinatra? I mean, if you made the case for Sinatra,
what would be the argument?
NORM PEARLSTINE:
I think the argument for Sinatra would be that he was someone who
through music really, discussed romance, discussed life, discussed,
relationships, discussed generations, the ages, in a way,
that is different from others. I would also say that, you know,
beginning with his work with Dorsey, with the V-Discs, uh, through
the Capital years, through the Columbia years, the Reprise years, there
are just specific areas of work where whole new audiences came to
him and had an appreciation of him. So, to me, it is more than just the
brilliance of an artist over a fifty year period, rather than, or sixty
year period, rather than his, his influence on other musicians or
on the genre.
ROBERT HUGHES:
Yeah.