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Faludi: It seems to me that the reaction to Gloria's book is a classic case of how the backlash works. There's been an almost willful misreading of her message. A friend of mine said it seemed like all those who want to dismiss feminism have been lying in wait for Gloria, because of her unsullied reputation. They were looking for any opening to start slinging mud.
Q. Does it matter that most of the mudslingers are women?
Steinem: We've reached the point where the movement is powerful enough to make jobs for antifeminist women. You don't get work selling out a movement until there is a movement. I used to think about that with Phyllis Schlafly. I thought, Well, at least she has a job.
Q. Is anyone who criticizes your books necessarily an antifeminist?
Faludi: No, as long as we're talking about responsible criticism. I'm critical of other feminists myself; I believe there should be more open discussion and disagreement. But so much of the criticism seems to be about a book I didn't write. I'm charged with saying there's a male conspiracy out there to put women down. Anyone who says that can't possibly have read the book. I say about 14 times that I don't mean there's a conspiracy. This is not a book about hating men.
Q. But there is a theme throughout the book of women as victims, men as oppressors.
Steinem: But that's true. It's not every woman and every man, but it's the culture that rewards men for dominating and rewards women for acceding to domination. It doesn't mean that we invented it, but it does mean that it's real.
Faludi: I also like to point out that despite all these efforts to turn women into victims, women did resist -- by not buying the clothes or rushing out to get married at 18, or by not becoming "neotraditionalists."
Steinem: By listening to their true voice -- a theme Susan and I both ended up with. I also think it's possible that intellectual women reviewers were less comfortable with my book than with Susan's because I'm bringing emotional concerns, childhood and other traditionally female values into the public sphere. I'm speaking personally; Susan is speaking as a professional reporter in a way that the world of journalism respects.
Faludi: In an odd way I was playing more by the boys' rules -- saying, O.K., you men will listen to data and "rational arguments" and statistics, and the body of evidence will convince you.
Steinem: It's objective, third-person reporting, in which you don't put yourself in the story. It's not that one method is better than the other -- you choose the method that suits the subject. Susan's method was exactly right because it got credibility within the world it was attacking. This book reminds me of the woman detective who wired herself and won her sexual- harassment case. Those guys taught her how to wire herself, and she did, and she caught them. It's a sweet victory, to win using their methods.
Q. You've been criticized for patronizing women, by saying they were sheeplike in following orders and going back into the home, without understanding that many may have wanted to stay home.