Interview: Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi

TIME: Many people outside Africa know Ethiopia primarily from television reports of the famine in 1984 and 1985.
Meles: That was clearly part of our reality. We cannot run away from it. Ethiopia is in the midst of a profound transformation. Most analysts agree that our growth has been exceptionally pro-poor. The political transformation is still a work in progress. There have been quite a few bumps on the road. But in the end, the movement has been inexorably in the right direction towards permanently establishing democratic institutions, towards further consolidation of a democratic culture and towards further stabilization. On the eve of the millennium, we are beginning to see the impact of the start of the transformation of the country.

TIME: What happens in Ethiopia has an impact well beyond its borders. Why?
Meles: After Nigeria, we are the second biggest black African nation. We are the headquarters of the African Union. We are the only African country that has never been colonized. This is perhaps the last surviving African civilization. We have our own script. We have our own calendar. We represent the greatness of Africa's past. We also represent the worst of Africa's present, in terms of poverty. It is the best and the worst of African reality.

TIME: As you say, democracy is a destination rather than a present reality.
Meles: While all democratic systems are works in progress, ours started rather late and therefore has a longer distance to cover. But democratic transformation for us is not mimicking some facets of Western governance. The focus has been on building institutions of democratic governance. And to do so all the way to the grass roots. Democracy cannot be a plaything for the capital cities. It has to infiltrate every nook and cranny in the country, including the village.

TIME: There are questions about the validity of the 2005 elections which returned you to power.
Meles: Everyone, including the most ardent critics of the government, agrees that right up to election day the democratic elections in Ethiopia were exemplary, by any standard. The issue arises as to whether the counting of the vote was done in a fair and transparent fashion. Here, there are varied assessments. We argue that while there may have been mistakes here and there, on the whole it was a credible and fair count. The opposition did not agree. So we said: 'Let's check. Let's review the counting in the presence of foreign observers.' We did that. After we did that, two groups of observers the African Union and the Carter Center said that while there had been some mistakes, the outcome of the election was credible. The observers from the European Union did not criticize counting per se, but they said the environment was such that the outcome of the election was not credible. Their view was not shared by practically all European governments. Every one of them sent a congratulatory message to me.

TIME: Your government used what many consider excessive force to quell protests about the elections.
Meles: It's very obvious now that the opposition tried to change the outcome of the election by unconstitutional means. We felt we had to clamp down. We detained them and we took them to court. In the process, many people died, including policemen. Many of our friends feel that we overreacted. We feel we did not. There is room for criticism nevertheless it does not change the fact that this process was a forward move towards democracy and not a reversal. Recent developments have simply reinforced that. The leaders of the opposition have realized they made a mistake. And they asked for a pardon, and the government has pardoned them all.

TIME: Your image as a role model for African leaders has been tarnished by the perception that your government is not concerned with human rights.
Meles: As a person, I have never been discourteous or nasty to anybody. I may have stood my ground a bit too directly, a bit too firmly, and I believe I have over a number of years learned to be a little less direct. And I have certain misgivings about these human rights organizations and their activities. I see fundamental structural flaws in the way they operate. The way it's done is Mr X. says he is a victim of human rights violations. He reports that to an organization here or abroad. The organization has no means to verify the facts, but prints the allegations as allegations. Those who read those allegations do not read them as allegations they read them as facts. The other flaw is this attitude of holier than thou. Now, it is simply impossible for foreign advocates of human rights to ensure there is respect for human rights on the basis that there is Big Brother out there watching everyone. It has to come from inside. If people need a Big Brother, then by that very fact there is no democracy.

TIME: There are specific allegations that there have been human rights abuses in the Ogaden region. How do you answer these?
Meles: We are supposed to have burned villages. I can tell you, not a single village, and as far as I know not a single hut has been burned. We have been accused of dislocating thousands of people from their villages and keeping them in camps. Nobody has come up with a shred of evidence. Nobody. And I can tell you there are many intelligence organizations in the Horn of Africa. This is a very volatile area, and understandably there are much such organizations, and none of them have come up with any evidence. The reason is very simple. We know how insurgencies succeed and how they fail. And we have experience of counter-insurgency, from when we were on the receiving end. The most stupid mistake a counter-insurgency operation can make is alienating the population. If you alienate the population, you're finished. We are not going to make that mistake. We may not have been the most evangelical of human rights advocates in the world, but we are not stupid either. That is why we have not made those blunders and we will never make those blunders.