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Lebed: Anything is possible. Maybe a social explosion. Look at Chechnya. They charged like a bull at the Chechen fence and got their horns stuck. Now they are going crazy out of their own impotence and incompetence. Chechnya will force the politicians to start serious reform. They can begin by purging the armed forces of windbags and replacing them with a million fighters and half a million support staff.
TIME: What other lessons should be learned from Chechnya?
Lebed: Leave nothing to happenstance. This operation was launched by either dilettantes or madmen.
TIME: Is the Defense Ministry trying to give the military on-the-ground training in Chechnya?
Lebed: This is not the way to prepare an army. They are risking a Chechen syndrome. Those untrained boys who were thrown in will only come out traumatized, having crossed a line that no human being should cross. To win, you've got to plan carefully and then make war with the speed of lightning. In this case, they did not plan at all. I'm tired of counting the number of times they claim to have taken Grozny.
TIME: Do you see a way out?
Lebed: Human beings are not trash. Human blood is not water to be spilled. This war, which nobody needs, must be stopped under any conditions, before it spreads throughout the entire region, into Russia proper.
TIME: Why has there not been a louder public protest in Russia?
Lebed: For the time being, it's just the parents of soldiers, most immediately affected, who are protesting. But things will reach the breaking point quite soon.
TIME: What will happen then?
Lebed: The protest could take many forms, such as civil disobedience, open insubordination and the ``hijacking'' of recruits. It's an abnormal state of affairs when mothers steal their sons from the armed forces. This absurdity says a lot about the level of military and political leadership in the country. But then, this war is unconstitutional. Did the President ever issue a decree to start hostilities? There is just an order from the Defense Minister. So no matter what anybody does, they cannot be called to account before the law. This whole thing has been politically inept from the start.
TIME: If a social explosion takes place, what will prevent the whole country from falling apart?
Lebed: The way things are going, only the armed forces. The politicians themselves have pushed the army in this direction. Look at what happened in October 1993 [when Yeltsin ordered the army to attack the rebellious parliament]. Who determined what political line to take then? A tank regiment commander. He fired on the White House--and made a political decision. So if you want to influence politics in Russia today, take good care of tank regiment commanders. Assign a politician to each of them, who can whisper into his ear who is to be shot and who isn't. We can create an ideal political system this way, don't you think?
TIME: So you're saying the armed forces are too involved in politics?
Lebed: Precisely. Suppose those tank men had refused to shoot in October 1993, what would have happened then?
TIME: But weren't you one of the defenders of the White House in August 1991?