Q. Do you think America is doing enough to encourage democracy in Iraq?
A. It's a very difficult thing. It's what I call the edge of the sword. Your country will be criticized if you try to impose something, and Americans will oppose this. But if you do not do anything, people will criticize that.
I agree with President Bush. I would like to see another leader -- another regime -- in Iraq.
Q. You have said Saddam Hussein is a "wicked man." But won't a policy of simply standing aside from the conflict allow him to continue ruling?
A. I don't see how he can stay. I mean, he could be successful today or tomorrow, but not for long.
Q. Should he be brought to trial?
A. If there is going to be a decision, that should be taken by the U.N. But the mandate was given to end his aggression against Kuwait, not to remove him from power. If one of your divisions took a bridge on the Euphrates River, and didn't even go too far, maybe half the distance to Baghdad, maybe President Saddam Hussein would flee. But I think that would be a mistake, because in that case he might become a hero to the Arabs. Let the Iraqi people make the decision. Whether they are successful or not is another problem.
Q. The Iranians have said they are not seeking to turn southern Iraq, which is predominantly Shi'ite, into a separatist state. Do you believe that?
A. They would like to see the Shi'ite part of Iraq as their own, but I don't think they will be able to accomplish it.
Q. Given the chaos inside Iraq right now, what do you hope to see emerge from this civil war?
A. It's up to the Iraqis to decide. I would like to see a more democratic government, more representative of different groups in Iraq. The country is not a melting pot like the U.S. or Turkey, where many people have come and formed one nation. The human rights of different groups should first be established very well. If a society is not democratic, then its people cannot have freedom.
Q. Is an increasingly politicized Islam a threat to secular rule in Turkey?
A. If a state is religious, with a name like Islamic Republic and so forth, then there will be people there who want to appear religious, but they are just pretending to be so. But if your state is a secular one, then nobody can claim to be religious unless he really is so. Comparing Turkey today with many Arab countries, I think Turks are more religious. But this does not mean they are fundamentalist. Dangers exist, but the main point is that the problems are economic.
Q. But what makes you think Turkey can withstand the Islamic revolutionary anger that is affecting so many countries, even quite advanced ones like Malaysia?
A. I think Malaysia, economically, is richer than us. But from the point of view of the experience of having a state, Turkey is far richer. I say these other states should learn from us, not we from them.
Also there is a substantial difference between the living conditions of Turkey today and in 1979. Turkey is not today in a state of crisis. I mean, most Turks carry credit cards, like Americans or Europeans. Some years ago, it was a sin to carry a credit card or foreign exchange in your pocket. You would be jailed for it. Now, I say, we have passed a certain point, and we will not go back.