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A. As a young kid I read a boy's book about Annapolis, and this triggered a lifetime fascination with the Navy. My father had been a Navy man -- radio operator on the battleship Pennsylvania in World War I -- and he thought going to the Naval Academy was great. Later, when Admiral ((Hyman)) Rickover made fun of my going to graduate school, I persisted. I recall Dad saying that if you run a ship aground in the Navy, that's the end, but if you get a Ph.D., they can't take it away.
Q. Has it harmed your Navy career to be so involved in diplomacy?
A. At one time I was slated to command a cruiser when Admiral ((JCS Chairman)) Tom Moorer asked me to serve on the team negotiating the end of the Micronesian Trust. I objected, but to no avail. I received a nice letter from ((chief of Naval Operations)) Admiral ((Elmo)) Zumwalt explaining that this was necessary because we have many naval officers who can command a cruiser but only a few who can participate effectively in international negotiations.
Q. Did that hurt?
A. I was devastated. It was nice to know Zumwalt thought well of me, but I was a captain at the time, and in losing the cruiser, I was convinced I'd never be an admiral. I figured my education had torpedoed my future.
Q. How else did you deal with this?
A. A sense of humor helped. That's what keeps me going in tough times. There's no situation that doesn't have its ludicrous side. Even failure. To understand that simple reality is probably the first sign of maturity. Besides, I'm a pessimist at heart. I never expected to be promoted, and it always surprised me. When nice things happen to me, it is quite exhilarating.
Q. An element of fatalism?
A. I think so. I've concluded that in Washington on all these decisions we deal with, it's never as bad as the critics say it's going to be. And never as good as the advocates expect. I agonized when the Bridgeton hit a mine in the Persian Gulf. Had I oversold our capabilities? I was in a blue funk. The Vincennes Airbus shootdown was painful for me. I had lived in fear of such a mistake. But once it occurs, I believe you have no choice but to face up to it -- publicly -- well aware that you'll be criticized no matter what you do.
I have learned that there's always a new dawn. I was shattered when I first ran into really world-class criticism. Then I discovered that if I hung in there, in a week or two nobody even mentioned all those bad things. Fortunately, there's a new newspaper on the doorstep every morning.
Q. Do you still refight the Viet Nam War?
A. I think about it a lot. That's true for all of us. I don't believe any decision is made today on force commitments without thinking of Viet Nam. It's not always said openly, but it's there. The trick is to decide when the Viet Nam example is truly applicable. There's a tendency to make the connection without really thinking through the analogy.
Q. Who are your heroes?