While world attention focused on the machinations of a mad dictator in Uganda last week, the continent's crucial contest remained the struggle between black and white in southern Africa. As guerrilla war sputtered across Rhodesia and unrest smoldered on in the black ghettos of South Africa, TIME Senior Editor John Elson spoke with the principal proprietors and policymakers of the continent's white power bastion—South African Prime Minister John Vorster and Rhodesian Prime Minister Ian Smith. Vorster received Elson with Reporter Peter Hawthorne in his 18th-floor office in the Hendrik Verwoerd Building in Cape Town; Smith spoke with Elson and TIME Correspondent Lee Griggs the following day in his sparsely furnished office in downtown Salisbury. Vorster appeared to be stolid but relaxed; Smith's answers were plain-spoken and understated. But in essence, both men made clear their hard-line conviction that whatever political transition is to evolve in southern Africa, it must take place largely on their own terms. Excerpts from the interviews:
Vorster: 'Change to Where and to What?'
Q. How would you describe your country's position on the African continent today?
A. We made the mistake in the past of looking upon ourselves as Europeans, whereas in fact we were only of European extraction and were as much of Africa as anybody else. I have tried to make it known that we have every right to consider ourselves as whites with a permanent stake in Africa.
Q. Have you suffered setbacks in your relations with black Africa?
A. Unofficially, many doors are still open. Officially, certain doors are open. One is sorry there have been setbacks, but I am not perturbed as long as the trend is upward. The fact is that South Africa has established itself and been accepted as an African country.
Q. Are you committed to change within South Africa?
A. I believe in orderly change. Nothing is static in this world. All the changes that have been brought about in South Africa were brought about by this government, by my predecessors and myself. But "change" is just a parrot cry —change to where and to what? Nobody can tell you, as evidenced by the fact that [South Africa's parliamentary opposition] can't find an alternative to the policy of the government.
Q. Are you still convinced that your policy of creating "independent" black homelands within South Africa is the way to solve the country's racial problems?
A. I absolutely believe that this is the only solution. Any other solution will lead to chaos.
Q. Why isn't it possible for blacks to have the vote within South Africa itself?
A. It is my policy that the black people will have the vote, which they never had under previous governments. As for urban blacks, I'm prepared to give them all the opportunities for local government, for recreation and social activities. But political rights in the white areas, no. These will be exercised in their own homelands. And it should be pointed out that many of the homeland leaders are urban blacks.
Q. Has there been any change in your attitude toward the U.S.?