Quotes of the Day

Karzai: As you may have heard, we just got news of a suicide bombing in Kabul. I'll be getting the details shortly.

TIME: What does this attack mean?

Karzai: We are used to it. It's so unfortunate when you hear so much of it. Afghanistan has been going through this sort of suffering for a long time. You get very angry, and each time you get angrier. But then also you think and try to rationalize and seek better ways of prevention. That's what one does. That's how it is.

TIME: There has obviously been some worrying news out of Afghanistan over the last few weeks, fighting in the south, reports about [opium] poppy cultivation. For a lot of people outside of Afghanistan there is a sense that the world is failing and that the effort to build a new Afghanistan is faltering.

Karzai: It is definitely not. What the world should see is the desire of the Afghan people, not the problems we have along the way.

(Karzai leaves to consult with security advisor.)

Karzai: This is what I am hearing about the blast. So far, reports indicate three people killed in the coalition, three Afghans and the suicide bombers. (Numbers rose to 16 Afghans dead, 2 soldiers, three dozen wounded.)

TIME: As we were saying, these sorts of things add to a perception that the effort here is going backward.

Karzai: Look, we have enemies. The same enemies that blew up themselves in London, the same enemies that blew up the train in Madrid or the train in Bombay or the twin towers in America are still around. Before September 11, they were the government in Afghanistan. They were in charge here. Today they are not the government. Today they are on the run and hiding and they come out from their hiding and try to hurt us when they can manage it. They hate us all—they hate our way of life and they like when they can afford it to inflict as much damage as they possibly can. So we will have this for a long time. But what are we comparing the situation to? Are we forgetting that they were the government of Afghanistan? Are we forgetting that they were in charge of this country, that they had the entire infrastructure of Afghanistan at their disposal from where they could launch major attacks across the world? Today we are hunting them openly and publicly and they are hiding and occasionally they come out of their hiding and try to hurt us. So the enemy is defeated, but the enemy is not eliminated. The elimination part is what we should continue to work on. And that needs patience. That needs perseverance and that needs hard work.

TIME: Isn't this enemy growing stronger, isn't that what we are seeing in the South?

Karzai: No, the South is a different situation. Bomb blasts is one thing that you cannot stop. A terrorist activity of that nature, a suicide bomber, of explosions, is one aspect of it. The other aspect, the Taliban activity in the South of the country is an entirely different issue. That's something that is preventable. That is much easier to prevent and neutralize. The reason why there are now Taliban in Panjwai, in Pashmul, in Kandahar, is because we were weak there. People in Kandahar told me two years ago to strengthen the districts with a police force. We couldn't do that because we had no resources to implement what we wanted. And I began to negotiate with our allies exactly two years ago. It kept going on, we kept talking, and no one came forward to help us with that. The population kept calling for stronger district administration, police resources and reconstruction. We tried in that in some of the districts of Kandahar on our own. Two and a half years ago you will remember the Taliban were there. [In one place] they destroyed the mosque, they destroyed the bazaar, and they destroyed the district offices. And then the local population came to us and said, Look, we defended the districts for so long, we cannot do it without government help. I said 'What do you want?' They said, Send us 100 men or give us resources for 100 men in the district. And we did that. Till today it is the strongest of districts. We wanted to do the same in every district in the southern parts of the country. Or where we had borders with Pakistan. Where we have done that we are secure. Where we didn't do that we are not secure. That's a much easier problem.

TIME: do you think the fact that it has taken so long has eroded confidence in your government, or in you personally, among the people?

Karzai: Not at all. With ordinary people our expectations were too high. My own expectations were too high. We came, we thought the neighbors were going to be good with us, that terrorism was gone, that everybody was cooperating, that the little politics around the region was no longer there to sabotage the process. That we would strengthen our administration. We concentrated on the political aspect and we succeeded very well in that. We had the emergency loya jirga, the constitutional loya jirga, and the presidential elections, the parliamentary elections—all that. We concentrated on health, a lot of success, from 10% of the population getting medical services to 70% today. Road building was a success. We began to pay attention early on to the army, which is now much better than what it used to be. We did not focus attention in time in strengthening the police, the institution that actually is in daily contact with districts for security. That's where we should have focused strongly. That's where I began to focus very strongly two years ago, and unfortunately I did not get support from our partners. In spite of repeated pleas. In spite of a very clear plan I presented. I proposed that we must have more police in the districts. Now whether that support, that police is in the form of recruitment from the cities or from the villages, we need it to strengthen the community with more police. Unfortunately it was misinterpreted very wrongly by the international community as us asking for militias. No, that is not what it is coming from. We are simply trying to have more police from the communities.

TIME: For the Afghan and international community it has been hard to understand some of the decisions you have made in terms of putting former warlords and suspected drug smugglers in positions of power. Aren't you creating a bigger problem this way?

Karzai: No drug smugglers, clearly, that I know of—that I have been told that so and so is a drug smuggler, I would definitely take action, never. Never. Those that we refer to as warlords have done a service to this country. They fought the Soviets. They fought the Taliban. They were partners with the coalition. They have a desire to help us. Now whether some of them are capable of delivering the services that we require today or not is a different matter. But we cannot shun away those who have served this country and throw them into nothing. That will bring us into another form of instability. My job here is to try to move forward, keeping this very delicate jar of the Afghan peace process and reconstruction and institution building in my hands through troubled waters. Through minefields, through stormy conditions, through areas that don't have proper light and keep this jar intact and safe, and take it to the distant place. Along the way I may have to do things that some in the international community may not like. But I have my Afghan judgment and that is what I use. And that Afghan judgment does not need to be understood by the international community. Including in the war on terror. I began to warn the international community four and a half years ago, just as we had begun. Of some of the cultural sensitivities of the country, of the environment in the neighborhood of Afghanistan. Of where we should go and look for terrorism. Of the sources of terrorism, of the places where they get trained, of the places where they get money.

That is something with which I have been engaged with the international community very seriously almost on a daily basis. Now when an engineer from America is killed on an Afghan road, reconstructing one of our roads or building a new road. Or when a soldier from Canada is killed in our country, or when an engineer from Germany or Turkey or India is killed, we should immediately think, who did that? Are these Afghans that are killing engineers that are building schools for us, that built clinics for us, that build hospitals for us? If Afghans are doing this, then how come Afghans are also asking at the same time for more schools, for more hospitals, for more reconstruction? Then how come they are not satisfied with what we have done so far? Why do they keep asking for more? You cannot be asking for something, yet destroying that thing. So there must be somebody else. If it is not Afghans then who is it? It must be a force from outside. Who is that force from outside? What is the cause of those from outside to come in and kill us and try to prevent our reconstruction? That sort of focus I want. There are two things. Or perhaps both elements. We must sort out what part of this problem is Afghan. And then that is our responsibility to handle. Be it corruption, be it lack of capacity, or be it some Afghan elements that would not like us to make progress or have foreign friends. But the bigger part, the more serious part, is the foreign element of instability in Afghanistan. Of blasts of explosions, of killings of engineers, of our clergy and our students. That is the part that I want the international community to focus upon more heavily. So that we will reach a solution eventually.

We may make mistakes along the way, in certain decisions, that every government makes. But our effort is to try to put the country together in this journey. To have the whole country together in this journey. My first job is the unity of Afghanistan. My first job is to carry this country along every part of it, every segment of it.

TIME: The way you describe those who are attacking the engineers, it indicates that it could be either external elements or it could indicate a division within Afghan society itself, about what the future of the country should be. Karzai: No, it isn't. Within Afghanistan it is very clear as to what the Afghan people want this country to be. Eight and a half million Afghans participated in the elections. That's very clear. That's almost half of Afghanistan's population. We have a parliament. The whole country got together to have a constitution. The whole country cried for more international forces four days ago to go to the whole country in order to have more security. People from the districts come to us and say, "Well, Mr. President, police police police, strong institutions, better roads, better education, better health services, better economy." Our vision is clear. Our vision is for a democratic, prosperous Afghanistan, keeping and moving along with the values and history and traditions that we have. Now this vision has enemies, the enemies are those who are extremists, religious extremists, trained outside, equipped outside, motivated outside. Call it al-Qaeda, call it terrorism, call it Taliban or a combination of all of them. Those are the forces that are hurting America, or who are hurting us in Afghanistan. Those are the forces that will hurt you in any other part of the world. And that is what we should be fighting together. And that is where all the allies should join hands and fight. So the allies should not be playing politics among themselves. That's where things go wrong. If we are all allies, then we must follow the vision thoroughly without trying to have little things in-between for ourselves.

TIME: What about a threat that is very much homegrown, and is happening throughout the country, which is the drug problem?

Karzai: That is a threat. Yes, that is our problem. Poppy cultivation is our problem. But it is like a disease. It has a point of beginning, it has a point of spreading and it must also have a point of treatment. We should see how this disease came about in Afghanistan. The sheer desperation of the Afghan people when the Soviets invaded, when the country was destroyed, when families no longer had any hope if their children would be alive the next minute, or if they would be staying in their homes the next day or if they would be in their country the next day. So the easiest crop, with the quickest cash, was poppy. I know of people in the southwest of the country who destroyed their pomegranate fields to replace them with poppy. And that should be tremendously dispiriting condition for a person, for a family, to destroy that beautiful orchard and replace it with poppies.

Then, mixed with this is the influence of the Mafia and the international drug dealer circles, for whom the more unstable Afghanistan is, the better it is for their greed and their moneymaking. While this has happened, it has also become an economic reality. Droughts, war, desperation, lack of hope for a future in the past 30 years, add to that the past nine years of droughts. We have a serious problem. Two years ago, after my inauguration, I spoke to the Afghan people and asked them to stop growing and they responded. I told the international community, look, this time it was an emotional decision, for a moral call by me to stop growing and they will do it. Next year the harsh realities of life will settle in again. People will want to marry their sons and daughters. People will want to be able to cure their sick ones, people will want to have a better life, and people will want to have something to eat. And unless we provide them with a stronger reconstruction and alternative livelihood they will go back to poppies.

In other words, the honeymoon will be over. And that is exactly what we have this year. Add to that, the encouragement that comes from outside, from the international Mafia. Now if the poppy income for Afghanistan is between $2 billion to $2.5 billion, when it reaches international markets it reaches $50 billion. So where is the rest of the money? Who benefits more? There is a lot of difference between 2.5 and 50. Where is that $48 billion going? And do you think that $48 billion will allow us to destroy poppy in Afghanistan? Therefore we need to have a very comprehensive program. The mistake was that there was a concentration at the same time on three important things in Afghanistan. We became relaxed in the fight against the regional elements of terrorism. We concentrated only on the international elements of al-Qaeda and terrorism. We ignored what was going on in the region. We ignored that the Taliban were given safe havens. We ignored that they were being trained again. We ignored to strengthen the police. And at the same time we concentrated strongly on the eradication, coupled unfortunately with corruption. We called some of the police forces corrupt, and yet we used those same police forces to go and eradicate. So: resentment in the farmers.

So: the failure of eradication. Now I want my partners in the international community to concentrate strongly on bringing security for Afghanistan by all the means available. If we continue to do this on the cheap we will never succeed. That means provide great support to the Afghan institution building, the army and the police. Give us what we want and listen to us. Listen to us the way we are asking for it. Do it the way we are asking for it. In other words, Afghanize the process. Let Afghanistan take charge day by day. Better than the previous days, more than the previous days. Second, have a clear alternative livelihoods program. That means economic development. Strong, effective economic development. Third, continue with patience, no quick fixes in here. We have to do that for us to succeed. Other than that we will keep going in this vicious circle of eradicating and coming up again with crops. Eradicating again and coming up with crops. More eradication, more crops.

TIME: President Karzai, let me ask you about your own style of governance. A number of people have said that one of the best things about you is that you consult with a wide range of Afghans, people within your government, your cabinet...

Karzai: I am criticized for that.

TIME: At the same time there are a number of people who have said that is the wrong approach. You are too nice to be leading the country in this way in this time. Do you think you are too nice?

Karzai: Well it's not bad to be nice. It's a very good thing to be nice. But look. What was the problem in Afghanistan? Why did Afghanistan fall to terrorism and the trouble that caused you trouble as well in the rest of the world? The trouble was twofold. Bickering within Afghanistan between various groups fighting amongst each other. And interference from outside. The two brought the circumstances that brought the destruction of the twin towers and bombs around the world, and Afghanistan falling victim to terrorism the way it did. So my first job was to bring the country back together. To bring a sense here in Afghanistan that this country belongs to all. All the groups that came with the Soviet invasion, with the communists, relied on exclusivity. They were exclusive, they were only for themselves, and they did not allow other Afghans. They either killed other Afghans, or chased them away or imprisoned them.

Unfortunately the mujheddin organizations, when they came they began to fight each other. Again, some form of exclusivity. The Taliban did even worse. They chased every other Afghan away. That's why there were more refugees during the time of the Taliban than any other time in the past. Bring in all of this mess the massive foreign presence that brought terrorism and extremism and al-Qaeda and all forms of religious extremism that caused eventually terrorism in Afghanistan. When I came my first job was to make this country home for all Afghans. And I did that. I am very proud of that. Very proud. Under my rule this country belongs to all Afghans. And I was proven right by the Afghan people as well. Because in the parliamentary elections the Afghan people voted for all assortment of politics and personalities. We have the Taliban here in the parliament—some of them won their votes, some of them didn't—we have the former mujheddin, the former communists, we have the seculars, the religious, the capitalists, the communists, we have all of them sitting in the Afghan parliament, the Afghan people voted for them. And everybody came back home, from his majesty, the father of the nation, to the jihadi leaders, to the former communists, to the refugees in Europe and America. All of them came back. And that's great. Now if I adopt a style of not consulting, and of doing it alone, the country will not have the kind of harmony it has today. I will not abandon this style of government. I will continue to do it. But where I need to take action against certain issues, certain individuals who are doing wrong for the country, I will again consult and act upon it. My problem is that I am perhaps too much of a democrat for this time of the country's life. If you need a dictator, then go to the Afghan people. Let them elect a dictator. I am not one of those.

TIME: One of the other things that we have noticed about your role is that you don't have room for a personal life. You haven't taken a day off since you came to power. Are you burning out? Are you exhausted?

Karzai: I am burning out. When I feel burned out I am immediately reminded of Frost's great poem: "The woods are lovely, dark and deep/ But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep/ and miles to go before I sleep." We have a lot of miles to go. A lot of miles to go. I think no Afghan president, even after my term is complete, will have an option on this account. I have to work very hard. You can't imagine how destroyed this country was. You can't imagine how dispirited this country had become. How miserable it had become. Unbelievable. When you go to the country, to the mountains where I was fighting the Taliban, I came across families and people who had nothing on earth. Nothing. And if they survived it worked. We have to provide them a better life. It will take time, it will take effort, and it will take very hard work. And no vacations.

TIME: So how do you relax? How do you calm down? Karzai: I think the best form of relaxation comes when I inaugurate a road, or see a good report, or I see that people have begun to have a better life or things like that have come a long way and that relaxes me a lot. I am very happy. I am looking forward to inaugurating the Torkham-Jalalabad road with the prime minister of Pakistan. That is a great sense of relaxation. Achievement is relaxation. What took away from my relaxation this morning with the bomb blast is replaced by looking forward to the inauguration of the road from Torkham to Jalalabad.

TIME: So something like the bomb blast doesn't give you more concern for your own security? You are not able to travel around the country I'm sure as much as you like.

Karzai: I think I have done a lot compared to what our means are. I've been to about 20 provinces of the country. I travel almost every month to a province. We are an understaffed government. We don't have the means, but even then we try to go and visit as many provinces as possible. One could do it more often, but then the schedule in Kabul is too heavy. And I believe that is what [chief of staff] Ludin should do. The lighter the schedule here the more chance I have to visit the provinces. The scheduling is the problem. Not only for visits to the provinces, but also for picking up a telephone and trying to contact people. I like to call provincial governors and ask them well, how are things? I rarely get a chance for that. Between meetings I run and make calls.

Ludin: Sir, your scheduling reflects the demands here on your time so I cannot...

Karzai: I was not criticizing. (Laughs) I was demanding.

TIME: There were reports that you used to sneak out from time to time on your own. Can you still do that?

Karzai: Yes, I have done that sometimes.

TIME: Recently?

Karzai: About 15 days ago. Around Kabul. Loved it, it was very good. Just took an unmarked vehicle and went around the city. Stopped by shops, shook hands with people and security was not informed. It was great. I would like to do that more often.

TIME: What was the reaction of your security staff?

Karzai: They were not happy. They have a job to do as well.

TIME: A number of people have said to us that they sort of wished that you hadn't said that you wouldn't run again for President. Is there any chance that you would amend that now?

Karzai: This is a very important question. Look. I want to leave a legacy for this country. A legacy of democratic transitions. Of power from one person to another. Nelson Mandela set a very good example of completing his four years term and not doing it again. Had he wanted to stand again he would have definitely won. South Africans would have voted for him. But he wanted to set an example of democratic transitions and of new generations emerging. My worry for Afghanistan is whether we will have leaderships emerging in this country to carry on the task. And that is what I am concentrating on. New leadership. Patriotic, aware of this country. Now if there is an alternative three years from now that I can be comfortable with, that I feel is patriotic, good and deserves to be elected, I would definitely quit in his favor. Because I want to have the flow of things. I hate to have a country where personality cults run things. No, that is disastrous to society. And that is what I am trying to prevent by bringing new leadership. Some people don't understand this, and I don't know if I can explain it properly. But that is my desire.

• ROMESH RATNESAR AND ARYN BAKER/KABUL
• In a TIME interview, the Afghan President talks about extremists, the opium-poppy problem and whether he is too "nice" to run his troubled country