"Attorney General: It's Very Hard"

On April 8, 1999, TIME corespondents met in Jakarta with Indonesian Attorney General Andi Muhammad Ghalib and two of his aides, director generals Anton Sujata and Soehandjono, to discuss the official investigation into President Suharto's wealth. The following are expanded excerpts:

TIME: In investigating Mr. Suharto's social foundations (yayasan), have you found that some of their funds went to the wrong places?
GHALIB: Yes, some of the money was not used for social prosperity or social purposes.

TIME: And that's not enough to charge the former President?
GHALIB: There's a problem, because to make the charge of corruption, we have to prove that money came from the state, and is not private.

TIME: The preliminary report on the foundations by former Attorney General Soedjono found that many...
SUJATA: Pak Soedjono never gave information. We found all the information from my team.

TIME: But what about his audit? You've seen his audit, right?
SUJATA: On the yayasan, yes. From the aspect of civil and administrative cases: that is Pak Soedjono. Mr. Ghalib and I have taken the criminal aspect. So the first time we didn't have any information from Pak Soedjono.

TIME: Except his audit.
SUJATA: Audit to him, not to me.

TIME: But in that audit by Pak Soedjono, there seems to be a basis for charging Suharto with misusing money meant for natural disasters, building mosques. I'm wondering on this question of charging other members of the family.
GHALIB: This is based on the foundations, actually. Mr. Soedjono left this case, but only about the foundations--only five foundations--and found only about one trillion or more, but we increased it.

TIME: To 2.4?
GHALIB: Yes, 2.4. As soon as I became the Attorney General, Mr. Soehandjono and I increased this. We found it because we tried to make it a legal and financial audit--very serious.

TIME: Do you think it's likely that other members of the former First Family will be charged? At the moment Tommy is being investigated.
GHALIB: As you know, Tutut, Bambang, Sigit--all of them are businessmen. If we have proof that they're corrupt, of course, according to our law, there must be two--what do you say--two basic, or two pieces of evidence of corruption. One is that state money is lost and the second one is that it is against the law. So if you say there is corruption we have to look for whether it is the state money and if the state lost money or not. If you find it, it's a corruption case.

TIME: In all of these months, all that you've investigated is the national car case [Mobnas], the foundations, and you've made inquiries, what, with embassies, regarding their assets abroad?
GHALIB: Yes, yes.

TIME: Why isn't your investigation any broader than that? There are so many other allegations.
GHALIB: Yes, that's a good question. But I have to tell you that because the focus of our investigation is Mr. Suharto, just Mr. Suharto first. So, if we want to make it good, we must look for more and more proof on Mr. Suharto himself. We have to separate him from his family.

TIME: So you're still in the stage of preliminary investigation?
SUJATA: From December 1998.

TIME: On the basis of your investigation so far, and the other information that is available to you, do you suspect that the former president has broken the law in any respect?
GHALIB: Ya, kita curiga. [Yes, we suspect.] Kita, what do you say, suspicion. We have to increase this preliminary investigation, and if it's proven, we have to increase it. This is our aim now: to increase it.

TIME: If you suspect that there has been corruption or embezzlement or fraud, somewhere, even if you haven't found it, why haven't you asked foreign governments to freeze assets that the former President may have overseas?
GHALIB: Many people have asked me about that. It's very hard, you know, because, we start with the law. So, without any proof, without any evidence, it's too hard to say. So, I already sent a letter to the Minister of Foreign Affairs to find out whether there is [money], abroad, in a bank, maybe some land, houses and so on. The minister has found nothing in the name of Mr. Suharto.

TIME: This is from Pak Alatas?
GHALIB: Yes.

TIME: And did he say anything about whether there might be assets in someone else's name?
GHALIB: No, no, no, except for the family. Family, he said, but I don't know. We are looking for Mr. Suharto's [money] abroad.

TIME: For example, Switzerland has said publicly that they're willing to freeze any bank accounts, they're willing to help but they have to have a request from Indonesia and still there's no request?
SUJATA: According to Indonesian law, in the preliminary investigation we cannot freeze the assets.

TIME: Has the Ministry of Foreign Affairs approached foreign governments?
GHALIB: About Mr. Suharto? No. Only about the family.

TIME: People say, Ghalib is a military man, a three-star general
GHALIB: Suharto is five-star. [Laughs]

TIME: Are you covering up for him?
GHALIB: No, no, no. This depends on the law, on what is right. We have investigated him twice. If we have proof, yes. O.K., we are very, very serious, but this must proceed through the law.

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TIME: What about the case involving Tommy?
GHALIB: Tommy was already sent to the court, you know. He is the son of his father. If you ask a father to choose, himself or his son, better the father. But we sent him to the court.

TIME: They're very close.
GHALIB: Yes, very, very close. So, if we prove that this is our law, he must be there. Now with Mr. Suharto we are looking for more proof, whether it's there or not. If not full enough, it's a problem. We have to make it secure that we have already found this, to increase the status from a preliminary to an investigation.

TIME: We understand that the former First Family has indicated that it might like to pay the money on the Mobnas project, the outstanding money. If they do that, won't that finish off the prosecution case?
GHALIB: In this case, there are at least two opinions. One is that even already paid but still can be, but the other said you can't because paid already. But it depends on the jury. But so far we use that: even if paid already, he still can be charged because not before, but after this, that's our law now. I told him already ... even if you've paid, still process.

TIME: So in the case of Tommy, that won't necessarily mean that the charges are dropped.
GHALIB: It's still, still going on. It depends on the court.

TIME: Even if there's no loss to the state.
GHALIB: Yes, because we are in the process now.

TIME: The seven yayasan. Last year, I think it was December, it was reported that these had been given by Suharto to the government or the state. Did he hand the assets over, or just the operations?
SOEHANDJONO: The operation is run by the government. The assets belong the foundations. The money doesn't belong to Suharto. The money always belongs to the foundations.

TIME: Suharto is the chairman of these foundations. So if the money is still in the foundations, then it's still controlled by Suharto, right?
GHALIB: No, no, no, no. It's controlled by the Coordinating Minister for the Eradication of Poverty. There's a decree on that... It was placed with the Coordinating Minister Pak Haryono Suyono.

TIME: Why haven't the assets been handed over with the control of the yayasan?
SOEHANDJONO: Because their purpose is social activity. So they continue the social activities, but are run by the government.

TIME: But the money, the fund, is still under the foundation? And Suharto is still the chairman of the foundation? But if someone wants to spend foundation money, they still have to come to Suharto to sign the check?
GHALIB: No, it's Pak Haryono Suyono. I think Pak Haryono is already running the foundation.

TIME: But we also heard, actually from someone in your own office, that still, before they spend the money, they still have to get the signature of the former President.
GHALIB: I don't know exactly, but according to Mr. Haryono, he's already running it. Because I asked him whether you already run, yes, everything's O.K. Nobody can use the money without permission from this minister.

TIME: Regarding the yayasan, you say that you have found that some of the money has been misused, but you cannot press charges because it has to be state money. If you know that the yayasan's money is coming from profits of state banks, or from the salaries of civil servants, that's state money being misused. How much evidence do you need before you will charge Suharto?
GHALIB: We only need two, at least two. Number one is that we already prove the money is state money, lost there and come to somebody there, whether it is personal, for his family or for someone else. That's number one. The second one is whether it's against the law.

TIME: So, is it not against the law to take money from civil servants, state companies, state banks, and lend it to friends and their children for their businesses?
GHALIB: No, no, no. Because, if we can prove that money is direct from the state, the state loses the money, and it is against the law. I can give you one example. Here in Indonesia, the scholarship uses the state's money for going abroad. But when you come back from abroad and the money isn't used according to plan, this can be corruption. The money is lost already, but it's not against the law. So we can't say.

TIME: So you have to have both elements?
GHALIB: Must be both.

TIME: Are you getting close to laying formal charges against Suharto?
GHALIB: According to the TAP MPR [special parliamentary decree] we have to. Before the Sidang Umum [special house session], it must be finished, that's my target.

TIME: Which is December?
GHALIB: No, no, October, November.

TIME: Both Suharto and the children?
GHALIB: Just Suharto.

TIME: Are you also investigating the other children?
GHALIB: If we find the proof.

TIME: Are you looking for proof?
GHALIB: We are looking, and we are going to find out whether there is data or not. If you have data, for instance if you have Mr. Suharto's account in the United States or wherever, give me the number. Tomorrow I'll catch a flight there, because I already have the letter from Mr. Suharto. I'm very happy to get the account number.

TIME: But what if it's under someone else's name? Are you looking for that? Are you looking for assets held under another name?
GHALIB: Another name? Yes, of course, I would go there. He told us if you get the name--or the other name--as soon as you can prove it, come. We have already investigated from here. So, it depends on the proof.

TIME: Why aren't you investigating allegations of corruption in relation to the National Logistics Agency or the state oil company Pertamina?
GHALIB: Maybe the reason is, if we want to investigate all of them, because he was the President, so, of course, many of them are connected, including us.

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TIME: What are some of the difficulties that you have encountered?
GHALIB: For instance, to find proof from the yayasan through these two legal and financial audits--it's not easy to find that. Where's the money transferred? We use time, maybe three to four months for the financial audit. For the Mobnas, it's also the same. We have to find out--the minister, we asked the ex-minister of finance, and so on--we have to ask him ... It's not easy. From there we have to find out again, we see the book [he uses his hands to show the enormous amount of documents], so we need a lot of time to find out, but not more than the Sidang Umum. We have to finish before then.

TIME: Then even if you haven't investigated Bulog, Pertamina, then you won't do it at all?
GHALIB: Yes, of course if we need them, we can find out. But so far, with these two cases I think we can do something if we want to increase to the others--Bulog and so on, and so on.

TIME: But what about the people who say that you are giving the former President a lot of time to move the money into the name of his lawyers or other proxies?
GHALIB: No, no, we haven't given a lot of time for it, so far it has been according to the law. We can't go against the law. Law enforcement against law--we can't do like that. It must be according to the law.

TIME: If it's true that there are billions of dollars in Austria, don't you think you're giving them a lot of time to move it to another country?
GHALIB: We have to find out. We can prove, you know. We can see that there is the moving of money, we can find out. We can, no problem.

TIME: You're not worried.
GHALIB: No, because of the bank. Here, for instance, we can find out about a corrupter, you know, he sent money everywhere. The proof starts here. We call it a financial audit. We can find it. So, we need time, you know. Not easy to get it because most of them are very, very clever to make loss to the state.

TIME: But don't you think it would make it easier if you froze the assets first, so you don't have a moving target?
GHALIB: No. My target is not more than the Sidang Umum. I have to finish it all. We are limited by the law because before someone is [proven] a corrupter, for instance, we can't accept his account in the bank. But if he's already been increased to the status of tersangka, accused, we can find it, we can stop it. That's our law here.

TIME: Then you can freeze?
GHALIB: Yes, then we can freeze that.

TIME: Which law says that you can't request the foreign government to ...
GHALIB: That's our Indonesian law. Decree No. 3, 1971.

TIME: That's here. But they can do it overseas. The Swiss are waiting to do it.
SOEHANDJONO: But the case is in Indonesian court, not in a foreign country's court. [Laughs] So it should be based on the procedures here.
GHALIB: I met already with the ambassador of Switzerland, because he came here. I asked him, Sir, can you assist us with Mr. Suharto's account abroad? And he said, Yes, we can help you if Mr. Suharto is already in the status of tersangka [accused]. So, as soon as he is accused, they can open his account.

TIME: But at this stage you can't tell us whether you're planning to charge Suharto to make him a tersangka or not?
GHALIB: Of course, I told you already, it depends on the proof. We have plans to send to the court all the corruption findings. But it's based on the proof. That's our problem. For instance, Mr. Tommy Suharto: he's already been proven. We agree completely that we have proof to send him, so we send him. It's easier because we have found this. It's very easy to get the proof. But this case, it's not very easy--that's our problem.

TIME: On the financial auditing you mentioned before, the seven yayasan, you say they've got--your audit of Suharto's seven main social foundations disclosed that they have about 5.4 trillion rupiah. So, our question is, if we look at their sources of revenue since they began in 1978, like Dakab, Supersemar, Dharmais, it's 2.5% of the profits of state banks. In the case of Dharmais, it's a percentage of the salaries of civil servants. These foundations--three of them--had a share in Nusamba. Nusamba had a share in Freeport. How is it possible that over 20 years there's only five and a half trillion? Isn't the real figure much higher than that?
GHALIB: Your estimate is the same as mine. There may be more, but how could we find it? We are not experts. Maybe you have experts. Can you give me experts?

TIME: So, 5.4 trillion is your current estimate of what they have. What is your estimate of how much revenue they received over the past 21 years?
GHALIB: Ha, ha, ha ... that's very good, that's very good. Actually, I can understand your thinking, very good, actually. You must be an Attorney General, a very good one. Thank you very much, that's very good.

TIME: Soedjono had an estimate for how much they have received. You must have seen Sudjono's report.
GHALIB: He told you? Soedjono told you?

TIME: So after investigating the foundations for three months, you don't have an estimate of how much revenue they received over the past 21 years?
GHALIB: You know why? We tried to find out where this money comes from. Because it comes from the cuts of salary, from the banks, and so on. You can see every month. So, we can see, according to the books, where the money is come from. It's based on that, not on my calculations.

TIME: Well, according to the books, how much revenue have they received over the past 21 years?
GHALIB: I told you, 5.4 trillion rupiah.

TIME: That's the total? Do you believe that?
GHALIB: That's the financial audit. This depends on the final audit. Believe it or not, we can estimate because it's according to the financial audit.
SOEHANDJONO: And we didn't conduct the financial audit. It was done by others, the auditors. So, they made up the amount of the money, not us. We just received the amount from them, based on the investigation done by them.

TIME: But can I just ask you, do you believe that those books that have been audited for you, by BPKP, do you believe that the books are accurate?
SOEHANDJONO: We tried to find very old books. If you worked in that area for several months, you would have gotten a headache and your eyes would not be in a good condition because the books are very, very old, from '74, '75, '76, up to '98.

TIME: Have you obtained the former President's tax records?
GHALIB: Yes.

TIME: And the children, have you also gotten their tax records?
GHALIB: For the children, not yet, not yet.

TIME: Have you got the bank records for the children?
GHALIB: Banking records, no. For Mr. Suharto, yes.
SOEHANDJONO: We have asked about 90 banks in Indonesia and from some of the banks, we can find some of Mr. Suharto's money. But that has already been announced by the Attorney General.

TIME: When Mr. Suharto says he has $3 million and however many hectares, is that all accurate according to your investigation?
GHALIB: We examined 72 banks, and we found 23 million is Mr. Suharto's money, his private money.

TIME: That's the total? 23 million?
SOEHANDJONO: Billion.
GHALIB: Billion, yes.
SOEHANDJONO: It's almost 24, in about five banks. That's all the money that he has in the country.

TIME: What was Suharto's presidential salary?
GHALIB: I don't know exactly because I never asked.
SUJATA: I asked President Suharto where his money come from when he went abroad? He got pocket money, he brought and sent to the bank for more than 30 years.
SOEHANDJONO: He never used the money. It was always prepared for when he went somewhere--for food and lodging.

TIME: Do you accept that explanation, that he's got almost 24 billion rupiah? Where did it come from?
SOEHANDJONO: From pension.

TIME: How much is the pension?
SOEHANDJONO: I don't know. And also from the--he has one or two houses that he has contracted to other people, so it also comes from that.

TIME: You've been investigating Suharto since December on suspicion of corruption, but you don't know what his monthly salary was? Is this a serious investigation?
GHALIB: Very serious, you know, very serious, but this is just preliminary.

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