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TIME: But the money, the fund, is still under the foundation? And Suharto is still the chairman of the foundation? But if someone wants to spend foundation money, they still have to come to Suharto to sign the check?
GHALIB: No, it's Pak Haryono Suyono. I think Pak Haryono is already running the foundation.
TIME: But we also heard, actually from someone in your own office, that still, before they spend the money, they still have to get the signature of the former President.
GHALIB: I don't know exactly, but according to Mr. Haryono, he's already running it. Because I asked him whether you already run, yes, everything's O.K. Nobody can use the money without permission from this minister.
TIME: Regarding the yayasan, you say that you have found that some of the money has been misused, but you cannot press charges because it has to be state money. If you know that the yayasan's money is coming from profits of state banks, or from the salaries of civil servants, that's state money being misused. How much evidence do you need before you will charge Suharto?
GHALIB: We only need two, at least two. Number one is that we already prove the money is state money, lost there and come to somebody there, whether it is personal, for his family or for someone else. That's number one. The second one is whether it's against the law.
TIME: So, is it not against the law to take money from civil servants, state companies, state banks, and lend it to friends and their children for their businesses?
GHALIB: No, no, no. Because, if we can prove that money is direct from the state, the state loses the money, and it is against the law. I can give you one example. Here in Indonesia, the scholarship uses the state's money for going abroad. But when you come back from abroad and the money isn't used according to plan, this can be corruption. The money is lost already, but it's not against the law. So we can't say.
TIME: So you have to have both elements?
GHALIB: Must be both.
TIME: Are you getting close to laying formal charges against Suharto?
GHALIB: According to the TAP MPR [special parliamentary decree] we have to. Before the Sidang Umum [special house session], it must be finished, that's my target.
TIME: Which is December?
GHALIB: No, no, October, November.
TIME: Both Suharto and the children?
GHALIB: Just Suharto.
TIME: Are you also investigating the other children?
GHALIB: If we find the proof.
TIME: Are you looking for proof?
GHALIB: We are looking, and we are going to find out whether there is data or not. If you have data, for instance if you have Mr. Suharto's account in the United States or wherever, give me the number. Tomorrow I'll catch a flight there, because I already have the letter from Mr. Suharto. I'm very happy to get the account number.
TIME: But what if it's under someone else's name? Are you looking for that? Are you looking for assets held under another name?
GHALIB: Another name? Yes, of course, I would go there. He told us if you get the name--or the other name--as soon as you can prove it, come. We have already investigated from here. So, it depends on the proof.
TIME: Why aren't you investigating allegations of corruption in relation to the National Logistics Agency or the state oil company Pertamina?
GHALIB: Maybe the reason is, if we want to investigate all of them, because he was the President, so, of course, many of them are connected, including us.
TIME: What are some of the difficulties that you have encountered?
GHALIB: For instance, to find proof from the yayasan through these two legal and financial audits--it's not easy to find that. Where's the money transferred? We use time, maybe three to four months for the financial audit. For the Mobnas, it's also the same. We have to find out--the minister, we asked the ex-minister of finance, and so on--we have to ask him ... It's not easy. From there we have to find out again, we see the book [he uses his hands to show the enormous amount of documents], so we need a lot of time to find out, but not more than the Sidang Umum. We have to finish before then.
TIME: Then even if you haven't investigated Bulog, Pertamina, then you won't do it at all?
GHALIB: Yes, of course if we need them, we can find out. But so far, with these two cases I think we can do something if we want to increase to the others--Bulog and so on, and so on.
TIME: But what about the people who say that you are giving the former President a lot of time to move the money into the name of his lawyers or other proxies?
GHALIB: No, no, we haven't given a lot of time for it, so far it has been according to the law. We can't go against the law. Law enforcement against law--we can't do like that. It must be according to the law.
TIME: If it's true that there are billions of dollars in Austria, don't you think you're giving them a lot of time to move it to another country?
GHALIB: We have to find out. We can prove, you know. We can see that there is the moving of money, we can find out. We can, no problem.
TIME: You're not worried.
GHALIB: No, because of the bank. Here, for instance, we can find out about a corrupter, you know, he sent money everywhere. The proof starts here. We call it a financial audit. We can find it. So, we need time, you know. Not easy to get it because most of them are very, very clever to make loss to the state.