Zimbabwe's Outspoken Archbishop

Archbishop Pius Ncube, 50, occupies a curious position in Zimbabwe. He is one of President Robert Mugabe's most outspoken critics, and this year offered to lead a street campaign to oust him. So far Ncube has been untouched by the repression that has befallen other opposition figures. Possibly this is because Ncube can be just as scathing about the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (M.D.C.). Possibly it is because he is a Roman Catholic, the religion in which Mugabe was raised. There are signs that his religion may not protect him for much longer, however. On Saturday, Mugabe told the Zimbabwean daily, The Herald: "Once [the bishops] turn political, we regard them as no longer spiritual and our relations with them would be conducted as if we are dealing with political entities and this is quite a dangerous path they have chosen for themselves."

After being arrested and forced to leave the country by a government that has little tolerance for journalists, TIME's Africa bureau chief Alex Perry spoke to Ncube by telephone at St. Mary's Cathedral in Bulawayo.

TIME: Describe your own experience of Zimbabwe's sudden implosion.

Ncube: At independence, out of 53 countries in Africa, Zimbabwe was the second biggest economy, second only to South Africa. The infrastructure, the roads were well done, the railways and telephones were good, the health sector was good. The schools were the best in Africa — we had a 86-90% literacy rate. We had a sophisticated economy. And the Zimbabwean dollar was strong. In 1980, one Zim dollar was one pound sterling — or two American dollars.

Mugabe had been drilled in socialism and communism, and people thought he would toe the Marxist line. But when he took power, he respected what was there. He included other people in his government and he respected agriculture and the farms as the backbone of the economy.

TIME: What happened?

Ncube: Mugabe is extremely power conscious. He's obsessed. Anything that disturbs his power base, he immediately reacts. In the 1980s, he sent the [North-Korean trained Zimbabwean Army] Fifth Brigade into Matabeleland to kill 20,000 people. It was crazy. It was his own people. It's absolutely diabolical. Atrocious.

Basically, he can never have any opposition. He wants to be acknowledged as the only cock on the dunghill. He must have a one-party state. That's always his mentality.

TIME: How has that affected the M.D.C.?

Ncube: Mugabe has demonized them. He calls them a puppet of the West, Tony Blair's agents. A few years ago, he realized he was going to lose power. He also realized the [white] farmers were backing the M.D.C. So he decided that the only option was to break up this force, to invade the farms and crush the farmers. But one the results was economic collapse. Inflation is 4,000%, according to business people I talk to. Prices double in two days. People are leaving the country. You can't survive here. The government pretends the exchange rate is 250 Zim dollars to the [ U.S.] dollar; in reality it's 25,000. It's disastrous. And as people leave, Mugabe's people, who have a lock on foreign currency in Zimbabwe, are buying up every business in Bulawayo. Everything is geared towards the advancement of Mugabe and his party elite.

TIME: How does the regime's behaviour affect general morality?

Ncube: These people have no moral values. They are totally opposed to morality. The amount of suffering they have created: half of our children are out of school. These people have no conscience. What goes, what is allowed, is what suits Mugabe and what suits his aims of retaining power. They're really depraved. They are totally corrupt, ruthless, cruel.

In South Africa , Mandela set the standard for other leaders to follow. We have Mugabe, who does anything for power, whose god is power. As a result, moral standards no longer have any importance in Zimbabwe. Moral standards have plummeted. Corruption has never been so bad. Young people are so opportunistic now. Anything goes. People survive by stealing. They say: "Whatever helps you, do it." They are imitating Mugabe. This is the heritage he has passed on.

The only things that matters is the regime's staying in power. They wouldn't mind if half all Zimbabweans die. Didymus actually said that. He said they only care about the people that support them. [In 2002, Minister for State Security Mustasa Didymus said: "We would be better off with only six million people, with our own (supporters). We don't want all these extra people."] Five hundred people die of AIDS every day in Zimbabwe, but Mugabe does nothing to improve health. They are a mafia. A few people are stinking rich and the majority are below the poverty line. The people are being fed by the World Food Program — a third of us would be dead if it wasn't for the help that we're getting — but Mugabe is still berating the West. He never looks into himself and admits his mistakes. And the truth is that 99% of what we are suffering is because of this one man.

TIME: How long will he stay in power?

Ncube: He said he would step down in 2002. Then he ran, and he cheated and rigged the election. Then he said he would step down in 2008. Now he has just been nominated by his party.

TIME: Could Zimbabwe recover?

Ncube: There's been a brain drain. All the intelligent people — doctors, lawyers, teachers — have left. Zimbabwe could recover still; people are used to work. Even today, people will walk 20 or 30 kilometers a day to get to work and back. There is a lot of talent in Zimbabwe. And the West is ready to invest and get things up and running again. And all we want is what any man wants: food on the table, shelter, a future for our children, security and peace. Our only problem is Mugabe. He thinks Zimbabwe is his property. He prevents everything. We cannot live. We cannot breathe. But we are not his property. We are not his donkeys. He is riding us. We need to get this guy out.

TIME: The opposition seem very weak, though.

Ncube: have a crisis of leadership. Morgan Tsvangirai failed to deliver. People put their hopes in him, but he seems directionless, and the party has split. Meanwhile, Tsvangirai tries to convince the U.K. and the U.S. that he is the opposition.

TIME: You've said you would lead a peaceful protest campaign.

Ncube: We should all come together. We must be orderly, not violent — or these people will thump you. I would lead an orderly crowd. The trouble is getting people to be convinced of that.

TIME: Are you not afraid?

Ncube:They do harass you in every way. They invent things about you. They say I am gay, which is far from the truth. This phone is tapped. They could kill me any time if they wanted to. They say that when you have 20 people together, one or two of them will be Mugabe's spies. He has infiltrated everywhere, even the Church. I don't care. I will say what I want to say. I will not be quietened. I am not their slave. I do get afraid. But there comes a time when you have to overcome that. I take a stand because I am convinced I am speaking the truth. And the church must always defend the poor.